View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0015251 | The Last Federation | Balance Issue | May 22, 2014 8:53 am | Sep 12, 2014 5:19 pm | |
| Reporter | Drak | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Severity | minor | ||||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 1.021 (Of Armadas And Outposts) | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 1.037-1.038 | ||||
| Summary | 0015251: Breathing Vacuum preferable to a Life of Slavery | ||||
| Description | NOT rescuing a pilot (and thereby condeming him/her/it to a horrendous death in the vacuum of space) is LESS damaging to racial relations than selling said pilot into slavery (where the pilot may be able purchase his/her/its freedom - or have his/her/its freedom purchased by his/her/its home planet/family/estate)... Food for thought. ;p Suggested fix (which also fixes some other problems): eliminate the influence gains/losses for slavery at the blackmarket and make it pay a flat 100cr per pilot, then modify the "return pilots" at planets to give 50cr and 1/6th of an influence point each. Now the black market can buy all pilots (even thoraxian) and becomes the option to use when relations are too low to return the pilots to their people (or when you don't need any influence). | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | New | ||||
| related to | 0015280 | resolved | keith.lamothe | Cannot Sell Prisoners of Eliminated Race |
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You're not some grand keeper of pilots that people assume you're going to rescue them. They're pleasantly surprised when you do -- and for all they know, pilots died in the explosions and you couldn't get to them in the first place. If a Chinese fighter plane explodes for reasons unrelated to the US, and the US has planes 100 miles away, I don't think anyone would blame the US for not making a rescue. Maybe they couldn't, maybe there wasn't anybody to rescue. But if the US _did_ rescue the Chinese pilots and then did something awful to them, then people are going to (rightly) be pissed as heck at the US. That's where I'm coming from with the logic with the pilots here. |
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Only if the Pirates tell others where they GOT the pilots from... o.0 That's not very good business. Here's all the things that need to happen for it to play out as you indicated. 1) The pirates would have to be able AND inclined to report this to the other races 1a) Ananomous drops and untracable accounts could EASILY be setup to prevent the pirates from ever even KNOWING who was doing the dropping off. Surely ONE of the Hydral's heads would've thought of this? 1b) Assuming they knew, they'd have to distribute this information, which is VERY bad for business, so should be considered unlikely. --OR-- 2) The pilot has to be able AND inclined to report the information. 2a) If the escape pods aren't capable of identifying the ship that picked them up (in space, this is quite likely, as escape pods are meant to be as compact and cheap as possible, meaning advanced sensors and even a window may not be present), and assuming the Hydral isn't stupid enough to come and say "hi" to his future slave, there would be no way for the pilot to even KNOW, least of all report who his captor was. And if the escape pods used any kind of cryogenics or stasis technology, or even just metabolism slowing anethestics, to prolong survival, (or the pilot just bumped his head hard enough when things went "boom") the pilot may not even be conscious for any of this. 2b) Assuming the pilot DID identify his captor, he STILL might not retain that knowledge through the "enslaving" process (modern brainwashing can accomplish this, future BLACK MARKET brainwashing should EASILY distort memory beyond the point needed retain this information). 2c) The pilot would have to be WILLING to give this information to others, a VERY short thought process would lead to the pilots realizing that even though slavery can suck, vacuum sucks MUCH harder (and much more literally), so NOT talking would increase their chances of getting picked up, and therefore of survival. A prepared pilot would even have means of buying himself out of slavery and would know his very life depends on his silence... 2d) Assuming his memories remain in tact and he does talk, who's going to give any credence to a slave's word? They could be - and probably are - blaming anyone they want. 2e) Assuming the slave IS believed, who's he telling? His new master? Other slaves? Which leads us to the third party invloved... --OR-- 3) The new owner would need to be inclined and able to spread the word. 3a) The owner would have to OBTAIN information concerning who originally rescued the pilot - since you sell the slave to the black market, I'm assuming there's a slaver middleman who's actually receiving the pilots from the Hydral and then reselling them as slaves to interested buyers. So the buyer would never interact with the Hydral (and as pointed out above, the slaver pirate has very good reason NOT to include his sources on the "receipt"). 3b) If the owner DID somehow obtain the information, why would the new Owner be spreading this information? HEY China, the chineese slave I just purchased told me he was picked up by a US Naval boat and then sold to me as a slave, just thought you should know... o.0 China's much more likely to go after the owner than the US... Which brings to 4 --AND-- 4) The slave's home race would have to CARE enough for it to make a meaningful difference. This is one of millions or billions, is it really worth incuring the wrath of the last hydral (who's flying a ship capable of destroying whole Armadas and does so on a regular basis) over one man, ESPECIALLY if he isn't even a member of your race?! o.0 4a) On the POSITIVE side, it takes THREE pilots to give just ONE positive rep - so they can't actually care THAT much. In your anology, is Australlia gonna attack the US for mistreating a few Chinese prisoners? Guantanimo Bay didn't seem to cause that to happen (the UN eventually had some minor wrist slapping to do - but that's the equivalent of a federation, which doesn't exist a the beginning of the game, and is friendly to the Hydral by the time it's formed, so...) and... 5) More importantly, it's inconvenient. :) |
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While we're on the subject of selling pilots to the black market... I'm assuming Thoraxian pilots aren't sellable because they can't be made into useful slaves, because of their hive mind. The question then, is, how much is Thoraxian MEAT (and chittin/organs/etc) worth on the black market? Can any of their excretions or natural chemicals be harvestted for "recreational" or "medicinal" purposes? Considerring their dependance on the hive mind, can that link be blocked, or even better, SUBVERTED via technology, medical proceedures, or brainwashing. I'd think even a mildly creative Hydral could find a way to sell his un-returnable Thoraxian Pilot cargo.... (I'd recommend allowing the Thoraxian pilots be sold under the "sell pilots as slave" option and allow the details to remain amorphous, for the sake of those with weaker stomachs... Just assume they have the same "net value" as any other pilot after slave training and transportation costs are accounted for...) |
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Also, POW camps are pretty much considered standard proceedure in modern warfare (and rarely provide better living conditions than slavery), and tend to ilicit greater negativity from the hosting population than the prisioner's home country... |
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Oh - the crowning piece of the puzzle. When the Hydral were in charge, most of these races WERE more or less slaves, meaning they might very well not consider slavery to be particularly "abnormal". In fact, FREEDOM is the more "wierd" condition for most of these races. Relating then to the American Civil War era in the US (where slavery was freshly abolished). After the NORTH started freeing their slaves, not even MOST of the northern citizens were "offended" by slave owners - most simply carried on with their lives and didn't care one way or the other... :) (Alot of them had slave owning relatives that they maintained regular coorispondence with and would even visit or trade freely with.) And upon the completion of the war, slave owners, though compelled to release their slaves, were not particularly scorned or despised, and were more often pittied for their lost wealth. |
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Holy smokes, man! |
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Hey, I come from a race that opressed an entire SOLAR system, with no less than EIGHT other sentient races, surely ONE of my heads considers the less than "moral" options... ;) Again, feel free to close the ticket as simply, "desired effect", I'm just providing the thoughts that occur every time I look at "sell to slavery" (that break my immersion) and am explaining why I never utalize the option (unless going for a fear federation)... |
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Some in-game realities concerning slavery and un-returnable pilots: In most of my games one race or another dies out while I have several of their pilots in my "inventory". These pilots basically get stuck there, and can't be gotten rid of. Basically, their (the pilot's) options are "Slavery or Live your life in my cargo hold until old age gets ya". And the slavery option isn't even available if they're thoraxian, or if their Hydral "master" isn't inclined to take the influence hit to grant them even that small increase in freedom. :) Slavery doesn't have to be horendous, it just depends on the local culture. Slavery could range from indentured servitude like conditions, to of course, very poor condtions. Considering these are space pilots though, they have significant education and abilities, meaning that "slavery" for them is much more likely to take on some form of indentured service on pirate or private (non-military) ships than some oppressive or particularly distatsteful service. Anyways, that's what goes through my mind every time I look at them clogging up my inventory. ;) |
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I gotcha. ;) There are some issues with prisoners not being able to be given back to races, and also potentially being able to use them for special missions dropping them off as ground soldiers on a planet. So I do have more planned for them. As for the sell into slavery option, yes, it's supposed to be a bad option that you basically never take. Why would that ever be a good option? That said, that's in the -- ahem -- standard game mode. And that's all I'll say about that for now. ;) |
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Returning pilots to "friendly" planets might be a good work-around too. They'd be the same as population that came from defecting ground forces (can't remember the word for it now, and don't have that save game any more, sorry.) Could give a small boost to armada construction or something for each "defecting" pilot. |
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Oh, very nice idea! As expats, yeah. |
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Yes! Expatriates! Couldn't think of the blasted word - lol. |
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X4000:"in the -- ahem -- standard game mode" I dearly hope this means what I think it means!!! Any changes that add more dynamics to the game are greatly welcome :p. |
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@Greenicetealeaf: It means exactly what you think it means. :) |
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For 1.038: * Added "Drop Off Expatriates" and "Drop Off Resistance Fighters" actions (friendly and hostile, respectively). Each takes a whole 100 captured pilots of the selected race, but it's something to do with them when there's that many. Thanks :) I don't know if this was intended to fully resolve this issue or not, but it was linked from my instructions. |
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Yep, this is the extent of what I had planned for this one -- thanks! |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| May 22, 2014 8:53 am | Drak | New Issue | |
| May 22, 2014 8:54 am | Drak | Description Updated | |
| May 22, 2014 1:41 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Internal Weight | => New |
| May 22, 2014 1:41 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038278 | |
| May 22, 2014 1:41 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => closed |
| May 22, 2014 1:41 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| May 22, 2014 1:41 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => no change required |
| May 22, 2014 2:15 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:18 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:18 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:18 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:21 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:22 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:23 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:24 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:25 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:25 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:25 pm | Drak | Status | closed => feedback |
| May 22, 2014 2:25 pm | Drak | Resolution | no change required => reopened |
| May 22, 2014 2:27 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:28 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:29 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:32 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038284 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:32 pm | Drak | Status | feedback => assigned |
| May 22, 2014 2:35 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038284 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:37 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038284 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:39 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038284 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:42 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038285 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:44 pm | Drak | Description Updated | |
| May 22, 2014 2:45 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:48 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038286 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:50 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038286 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:53 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038286 | |
| May 22, 2014 2:57 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 3:00 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038283 | |
| May 22, 2014 3:20 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038288 | |
| May 22, 2014 3:37 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038293 | |
| May 22, 2014 3:47 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038294 | |
| May 22, 2014 3:54 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038295 | |
| May 22, 2014 5:08 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038303 | |
| May 22, 2014 8:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038309 | |
| May 24, 2014 6:50 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038330 | |
| May 28, 2014 9:51 pm | Greenicetealeaf | Note Added: 0038371 | |
| May 28, 2014 9:53 pm | Greenicetealeaf | Note Edited: 0038371 | |
| May 29, 2014 12:37 am | Drak | Relationship added | related to 0015280 |
| May 30, 2014 10:30 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038388 | |
| Sep 12, 2014 4:54 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0039217 | |
| Sep 12, 2014 5:19 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0039218 | |
| Sep 12, 2014 5:19 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | assigned => resolved |
| Sep 12, 2014 5:19 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 1.037-1.038 |
| Sep 12, 2014 5:19 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | reopened => fixed |
